Didn't even read what you quoted, did you?

The playstyles enabled by NPC corps are bad for the game. Go ahead and take another crack at it, I'll wait.

You partly right. Though Kaarous has a point.

Being able to operate close to consequence free, although not a play style, is an advantage that indirectly causes issues. I'm at work I can go into detail with that later, if want. I'm sure Kaarous if he has the time can explain how that doesn't really fit the Marketing that CCP presented for all these years is the first one that comes to my mind.

No, just fully half of it.

I think that's sufficiently significant as to warrant a discussion. Especially given just how very little is given up in exchange for the immunity to wardecs.

And I'm still curious as to when I claimed that NPC corps should be removed, like people keep saying.

If it wasn't safe, then being in an NPC corp wouldn't be a universal choice for haulers, mission runners, incursion runners, and the like.

Feel free to specify what sort of corps you think they belong to while operating primarily in hisec, and I'd be happy to respond to you.

Pretty sure the people who are dec dodging are being considered in that category as well, since that's a widely used fringe benefit of NPC corps.

I would argue that they are not separate subjects. They're very closely tied in with one another, as they the defining features of wardecs and NPC corps relate to each other, respectively.

Discussion of one entails discussion of the other.

I'm not moving anything. I'm introducing an element for consideration that you had overlooked.

The point is that NPC corps, whatever else some people may use them for, currently facilitate extreme risk aversion, solo and antisocial playstyles, and hamper interaction with the playerbase at large.

And I believe that needs looked at. CCP believes it too, or they wouldn't be making so many pushes to get more people (new players especially), into player corps.

But we can't actually have the discussion because people are so intent on derailing, deflecting and derogating that we can't even move forward with the basic premise.

I get it, people want to defend their golden goose. Too bad, it's going to happen, just like ISBoxer did, because the way it works right now is bad for the game. People in this thread can get in on the discussion now or after the dev blog drops, their choice.

Also note something I said earlier. I pointed out CAS very specifically, as being about the only new player NPC corp that is worth a damn. Assuming that you had no idea what you were doing when you selected your starting school, you got lucky, nothing more. If you'd have picked say, Hedion University, you may well just be another early Eve burnout who quit out of sheer boredom after a couple of weeks or months.

CCP Rise alluded to that at Fanfest today either in his short presentation on the NPE, or in the game design panel; where he mentioned, as he has before, that CCP see a strong relationship between players social engagement and their likelihood to remain in the game. Part of the goal with the NPE changes I think is to try to increase social contact as early as possible.

Where the issue of the NPC Corps fits into that is that there is no structure in an NPC Corp that itself encourages social interaction in the same way that player Corps do.

It doesn't mean that NPC Corps have to be bad at social interation (eg. CAS), but that if you can encourage people to move into player run Corps, you automatically put them in an environment that by design is far more structured around social interaction.

Definitely I think, where veterans are involved in those Corps, the new players have a better chance of learning good skills, as opposed to Corps of new players; which can also be a symptom of areas of play within NPC Corps (eg. new players see mostly other new players in starter systems so it's likely that any social interaction will be with other new players rather than veterans).

Quite the opposite.

It suggests that thus far, the only mitigating factor in favor of NPC corps is completely player created and player driven.

That is just how badly CCP has failed in this regard.

I agree.

Problem is, right now it's overwhelmingly pushing people to PvE, solitary, boredom oriented playstyles. And, since the majority of the NPC corps they can end up in do nothing to change that, their subscription dies of boredom.

That has to change. You can't just handwave it away by saying "well CCP should fix the NPE", because NPC corps are a fundamental part of the NPE.




Yeah, which is why we should be pushing to empower people to be able to destroy such corps. You know, have something to fight for that can engage new players in the game, instead of making them mine for three months until they quit.

New players do have to go somewhere, exactly.

So why does that place have to be this sedentary, PvE focused group, every single time for every new player? Why is it that if you join this game to do something besides peck at rocks all goddamn day, you have to ask the EVE subreddit how to do it?

That's not our fault as players. It's CCP's fault for allowing this stagnation, for not taking an axe to this sacred cow a long time ago.

The way NPC corps work right now is a large factor in anti social behavior. They, along with the NPE, need to be reworked to offer a more social experience with more potential for conflict and in-space player interaction, not just jawing on in the shared chat channel.




Helped. My ideal solution would likely result in the dissolution of about 50% of the currently existing corps in highsec.



Who said anything about no way out?

Social interaction does drive retention.

And they're being set up for failure because of the way NPC corps work right now, and because the tutorials push people into PvE.

Those two things combined are a death sentence for subscriptions, even CCP acknowledges this.




I certainly don't think that new players should start in EVE Uni, if that's what you mean. But that does not preclude us from improving upon the deeply flawed current rules of NPC corps.

Are you serious?

Okay, laid out for you:

NPC corps are immune to wars.

Therefore, they attract people who do not want to engage in any PvP or player interaction in general.

These people, whose whole reason for being in an NPC corp is to avoid player interaction, are the first people that newbies see, the first group they get to interact with.

Get it yet?

If you're doing PVE, you're doing it to earn ISK. Yes some players enjoy the gameplay but what they enjoy most is finding ways to max out how much ISK they earn through it. 1 man or NPC corps in highsec are perfect for it.

PVE gaming also comes tied with risk aversion. Its true everywhere, "dock up" is the main strategy outside of highsec.

So now you have a place, NPC or 1 man corps, that offer you the best of both. You dont have to dock up or fight so your ISKing is uninterrupted, which leads to the most profit. And your risk is minimal if you aren't a mutt.

50% NPC corp tax (all income that isnt trading) and wardecs following you when you drop corp would solve it imo.

PVE in EVE happens yes, I don't think anyone here has a problem with PVE. Whats your point? That hence EVE has PVE it's not just a PVP game?

EVE is a PVP game at its core, containing elements of PVE.

I think PVE as a way for PVP to happen via ISK and Mod drops.

Still off base.

We should not be enabling this, and certainly should not be enabling such people being the ones with prime access to new players.

It needs to be addressed, because CCP has already established for us that it's a problem.




Because we actually like to play the game. Those of us who enjoy wardecs and PvP cannot do so in an NPC corp barring suicide ganking. We are effectively forbidden from interacting with new players at the basic stage of development.

That needs to change, that's my whole point in all of this. The new player experience needs to stop being exclusively carebear friendly, and that means changing NPC corps.




Consolidation is one step, yes.

And the strawman again. I'm not even going to bother responding to your theoretical rebuttal to points that I didn't make.





You ever been in Hedion during primetime, or hell, off time? They don't, that's the whole point.

Why would they have no way of understanding it?

Oh, that's right, because the thrice damned tutorial is not worth squat for how to actually play the game besides shooting at red crosses and eating rocks.

These are not separate issues, for the very last time. They are inter-related, and changing one necessitates a revision of the other.




Personally, I'd make it a tax based on character age. Anyone older than ninety days(or whatever arbitrary timeframe CCP decides on) would receive a heavier tax rate than the rest.

Exactly. Complaining that people using the wardec mechanic are engaging in "grief decs" is the same as whining about losing your ship to a gate camp in nullsec or being evicted from a wormhole. These are intended forms of PvP enabled by the the developers to drive the player conflict the game is built on.

Whether someone blows you up, or declares war on you because they want your cargo, want the kill mail, because you mouthed off in local, because someone paid them to, or because they want a emotional response is beside the point. As long as they stay within the EULA such player conflict is intended to occur in this game.

What gets me is how quick highsec carebears are to blame anyone who dares interfere with thier gameplay as a "griefer". How can they even know what is motivating an aggressor? Sure it could just be out of some desire to smash someone's sandcastle (which in itself is a reason perfectly acceptable to the developers) but it could equally be for direct profit (as with mercenaries), to eliminate a competitor, or just because one corp member insulted the wrong person. The reasons are opaque to the defender unless they are informed, so why must wardeccers always be sociopathic griefers looking for "easy" kills?

a 100 man carebear blob could hastily wreck a 10 man highsec merc wardeccing corp. They choose not to do it because "they dont want to deal with politics/etc" and want to play solo. Who said a 100 man carebear blob has to be politic minded? A PC corp that is designed solely as an offshoot of NPC corps, to house 100's of players who don't want politics, which does nothing but allow people to fight back in groups, sounds better than simply whining that they can't play solo because of griefers.

Also this is an internet spaceship game. If i want to blow up your internet spaceship with lasers cuz it gets me off, thats what i pay ccp $15 for a month and thats what i will continue to do.

There are other games for you that you dont have tangible meaninful losses in. That is a key aspect of this game bear

Kind of amazed that this is alive/necro'd, but short answer...

Assuming players leave because of war decs is fine, however following the thought logically should lead you to the conclusion that the people declaring the wars would leave the game if they had no one to shoot at.

My bad.

this game would literally turn into Hello Kitty Online

If all players start in NPC corps , how can any of them be more likely to quit than the others ?

Not sure how you intend to separate those two issues in the statistics to get an accurate view of the performance of NPC.

So people like you arent allowed to pay 3mill, create a corp and when newbros join, have their first interaction with you. Cuz if that happened, theyd quit and never resub.

Most ceos are terrible and actually hurt retention and hurt players. New bros are gullible

Not isk. It would have to be time related. Maybe the opportunity system they just made? Like useful stats of being fleet boss kills maybe even like ships built and deployables released, there are soooo many crest stats. Maybe lowsec jumps, i duno, there is humdred of those new Crest stats they could use to determine someone with game mechanjc knowledge and someone with none. Just stuff to not allow complete newbie idiots make corps and then some other newbro on a trial joins his terrible corp and gets ruined and never subs directly cuz of bjs terrible ceo who doesnt deserve to have ever been a ceo

How do you beat war dec immunity and low tax rates?

Who wants to play a MMO alone?

Tax is the problem. That is the intensive to get people to join player corps and leave the protection of the NPC corps.

I didn't state that. NPC corps are still social, a newish player in a one man corp is a very lonely way to play EVE.



We might know that player corps offer more than that but to a huge number of highsec players all they see the risk of wardecs and no reward for facing that risk. In reality the chances of being wardeced is slim to non but these people belive that it will happen on a bi-weekly basis. To them they see the 1% less tax as simply not worth it. If NPC corps had 20% tax then the reward is more clear to them.

War dec dodging isn't an issue to do with NPC corps themselves and more to do with the broken wardec mechanics.

Player corps offer more than just SRP. A small group of miners for example can support eachother, pool resources for industrial activities, protect each other, simplify things such as mass transport and most importantly they can trust each other in these activities.

If, for example, wars could not be dodged, and people were forced to use the surrender mechanic as it was intended.

Within half a year, the highsec corps that were left would be ones that you know have passed the test, and could be counted on to be worthwhile to their members.

Pointing people towards good corps is all well and good as an idea, but enabling the removal of the oh-so-many bad corps from the pool is far more important.

Nah, it's too spot on with narrative.


While what I write is true, as you only have granted rights by those with the guns ...
... and these people probably believe their existence alone gives them rights ......

... the whole situation is just too good not to be exploited.


Don't worry about *me*. I'm fine.
This is very funny for several reasons,
one also being that the weak never stop being delusional. :)

Anyway ... worry about them instead.

They need it. (:
I'll just play the storyline .....
..... and they believe it's real. :)

No. You are not getting that the game works based on the same set of rules.

Natural laws.

I wrote it.
Look it up.
Learn what it means and how it applies to this game.
Think about how your life would be if there was no police protecting you.

Tqke the whole package and apply it to EVE ONLINE.

If you can't do that ...
... then the issue is with you.


Good night, scrub.

Local chat scammers/spammers stay in NPC corporation for the safety. I would like to see them pushed out though.

I didn't say specific individuals, although I'd put down a few mil to suggest that a few of the more egregious carebear offenders in this thread have cost CCP a few subs.

Yeah but Ccps running off of pure assumption here with this. Sure they have data showing that people who stick to npc based corps don't stay subbed for long, but that doesn't mean those people are sticking to pure pve. I do both personally, and I'm in a npc corp. Pves my afterwork relaxation, Pvps my day off fun.

Now yes, I will be moving into a player corp once I find a group of people that don't annoy the snot out of me. Will I be having required log on times and events dictate my playtime? No. I have a life, twelve hour workdays, a fianc+¬, a wedding in 28 days, and a cat. You ever had a cat? Children would be a calmer choice over that creature lol.

No, I don't believe that is a valid conclusion from CCPs analysis.

At Fanfest this year CCP Rise gave an anecdote about another CCP employee who had joined the game many years ago and had happily played in his starter Corp since then, involved in a range of highsec PvE activities. It is a perfectly fine choice.

However, when all the data is aggregated, that style of play is not the most successful way to produce long term subscribed players. For those it suits, it's great.

For the bulk of people, other experiences seem to be more likely to result in long term subscription.

Yeah but where is the specifics of who 'they' is?

Who has called for a 20-30% NPC Corp tax?

Nothing to do with naming and shaming. Everything to do with basing discussions on valid information and not imagined details.

Yes there have been a few calls for increased taxes, that's not the same as 20-30% and on the whole they are easy to just completely ignore.

No, same one. I acknowledged it in an edit to my post above. I've said my bit on inventing information so will just drop it from here because we are way off topic with this and it'll never change anyway.

Lol Well why not allow them to wardec the NPC corp ?

That's not entirely correct.. if you declare war on an NPC corp you are then a legal target for everyone in that NPC corp.

You've lost me there , not sure what it has to do with being efficient.
Correct me if I am wrong, NPC corps do nothing other than tax you.

Depends how much it costs to war deck an NPC Corp

I don't need to justify the price difference, it's a completely invented number in the first place.

If losing wardec immunity isn't a problem, then the thread can end.

I don't think anyone has an issue with NPC Corps if wardec immunity is removed. It's about as simple as that.

This would be the system working as intended. Players get exposed to content, they join Player Corps, or make their own. Either way, they get access to new parts of the game, like structures, SOV, you name it.

Why is this such a problem?

I will flip the question on you.

If it is not such a problem, what is the issue with removing wardec immunity? Players are free to "have no interest in sov or structures and tailor play accordingly", but I don't see what all that has to do with having wardec immunity? Can't they continue to have all those aspirations while being vulnerable to wardecs in the same way that everyone else is in the game?



Why would I want wardec immunity removed?

• Because it removes exposure to content from players who are most vulnerable to quitting. We can argue about NPC Corps and quitting, but we all agree that content causes people to stay in the game. Wardecs are content.
• Because it's too powerful. Travel is an essential component of EVE. Travel can consume a significant portion of gameplay for someone who is out in space. Wardecs make travel in hisec for non-haulers 100% safe. Being immune during an activity that constitutes most of your time in space in hisec is too powerful.
• There is no lore or gameplay balancing reason for wardec immunity to exist.
• There is no statistical reason for wardec immunity to exist (see below).

From the horse's mouth:

No, we're making the argument that no one should be able to completely ignore certain parts of the game without consequence, just because they made the deliberate choice to be bad at that part.

As before. I suck at the market. Should I get to be immune to that mechanic, just because I'm bad at it? Because this is EXACTLY what you are suggesting should be true about wardecs.

Actually my argument is very stark. I have nothing to say about all of the 1,000 reasons that people have for staying in NPC Corps. I am perfectly fine with those justifications, those players are welcome to these preferences, and I will never ever argue against their right to have these desires. I said earlier that these preferences are irrelevant because they cannot be debated. They are 100% subjective.

I just don't think these players should be immune to wardecs. Wardecs have as much power to force participation as any other aspect of the game - which is to say wardecs can't force you to participate at all. In the sandbox, you can use a variety of methods to deny kills and deny content (hint: docking up is only one such way. There are hundreds).

No player can be forced to PVP through a wardec. Hence, the removal of wardec immunity is not a challenge to any playstyle or player preference in the sandbox.

How can you force a player to do anything at all? It is not possible, you know.. free will, human ingenuity, and all that.

Depends on perspective I guess.

I don't think there is any risk that CCP will nerf NPC Corps so the following is just a random thought rather than a call for action. Even if it was, it would just as much be a call for changes to many player corps:

Whether the CEO is an NPC or a player, corporations are at their core, groups of players. It's players that bring content to each other whether through conflict or support and within the game, the role of corporations is largely to provide support (eg. Common goals, shared experiences, services, etc.).

Where corporations aren't doing that what's the point of the corporation even existing, especially the starter corps where it could be argued that the internal engagement and assistance should be the highest out of any corps?

If the starter corps don't provide that support, it could be argued that time in them should be limited so that new players struggling to find the experience that hooks them, are moved after a short period to an alternative where they might find it.

Of the reasons listed in this long thread for staying in an NPC Corp, they seem to most commonly boil down to:

1. Wardec immunity (eg. Hauler alts)
2. Anonymity (eg. Links alts)
3. No interest in social play and want to play solo

None of us have said "so we can help others, especially new players".

Self interest, rather than shared interest, is the most common reason we use NPC Corps. That's also the antithesis of what new players seem to benefit most from.

So if, aside from notable exceptions like CAS, most of us stay in NPC Corps for personal reasons and not to be part of a Corp, why shouldn't that be nerfed?

Why also shouldn't new players be moved away from that environment as soon as possible because the other players in their corp are not interested in them? Why not move them somewhere else so they have a better chance of finding people interested in helping them?

A more harsh view might even be that if players in NPC Corps don't want nerfs then they should start acting like members of a Corp and not just as a way to easily hide or play alone, because otherwise they aren't being members of that Corp anyway.